 Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: DocRocket] #12184857 08/03/17 |  Campfire Kahuna Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,994 | I have never been convinced that Travis should have stayed... I dunno if I can concur with that. Dflave'southward April Fool jokes have got deadening, but he's nonetheless a valued member here IMHO.
Houston sent Bowie to destroy the Alamo and bring the guns dorsum to him. Bowie inverse his mind and stayed. And so got too sick to move.
They could take moved out and into the hills. Given Santa Anna fits attacking his regular army'southward rear and supply lines. I would have voted for that.
And hoped I would take had the guts to stay. That is the question every educatee of the Alamo ponders. I as well would accept called Custer an idiot and told him to start counting Indians.
Leo of the Land of Dyr NRA FOR LIFE I MISS SARAH "In Trump We Trust." Right???? SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "One time we squeeze all nosotros tin out of the United states, it can dry up and blow abroad." |
| Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: ironbender] #12184873 08/03/17 | Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 20,326 AkMtnHntr Campfire Kahuna | | Campfire Kahuna Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 20,326 | Some very interesting stuff in this thread, looks like I need to get that book recommended past Jorge every bit well. Keep it coming gents. I downloaded the Kindle version yesterday and am well into it. And so far it's a pretty proficient read.
I don't have a Kindle so I'm going to order the volume, looking forward to reading information technology. Any other books on this worth reading before I place my order?
John-
this was a good read.
https://www.amazon.com/Last-Stand-C...87068&sr=8-iii&keywords=last+stand Thank you Mike, just ordered them.
That'southward ok, I'll ass shoot a dink. Steelhead | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: BOWSINGER] #12184874 08/03/17 | Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 20,326 AkMtnHntr Campfire Kahuna | | Campfire Kahuna Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: twenty,326 | I have never been convinced that Travis should take stayed... I dunno if I tin agree with that. Dflave's Apr Fool jokes accept got tedious, but he's notwithstanding a valued member here IMHO.
Houston sent Bowie to destroy the Alamo and bring the guns dorsum to him. Bowie changed his mind and stayed. So got too sick to motion.
They could take moved out and into the hills. Given Santa Anna fits attacking his army'due south rear and supply lines. I would have voted for that.
And hoped I would accept had the guts to stay. That is the question every educatee of the Alamo ponders. I also would have called Custer an idiot and told him to start counting Indians. Wrong Travis BOW.
That's ok, I'll ass shoot a dink. Steelhead | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: teamprairiedog] #12185092 08/03/17 | Joined: Feb 2001 Posts: 47,041 Sitka deer Campfire Oracle | | Campfire Oracle Joined: Feb 2001 Posts: 47,041 | I've read most the Cavalry horse plant at the oral fissure of the Rosebud. I believe along with all of the tack that there was ammo in the saddlebags and blood on the saddle. There is an account ( I believe from Curly) of Custer sending a messenger to detect Gen.Terry or was information technology Gen. Gibbon. I don't recall ever reading that he fabricated information technology to the Generals. The rider was sent from Final Stand up Hill shortly before the encirclement was consummate. In that location are Indian accounts of a Soldier breaking abroad from the troop on a fast horse while being pursued past three or iv warriors who after a brusque distance were ending their pursuit ( because he was outrunning them ) when he then put his revolver to his head and fired. I believe he was traveling in the direction of the Rosebud. This might be that equus caballus also. I don't call up the colour of the Rosebud equus caballus or the two ridden out. Custer had each of his Company'southward issued mounts of only one colour, each Visitor'due south being different from the residual. I believe it was Russel White Acquit, translating for Curley that showtime reported the courier sent north, but it was long after the battle, IIRC. That equus caballus was a sorrel roan and the courier left every bit Custer sent a company to the river to feint a charge to buy him a trivial time, well before the serious shooting started. The courier did not arrive.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry near the NRA.
| | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: Sitka deer] #12185141 08/03/17 | Joined: May 2013 Posts: 1,447 Kellywk Campfire Regular | | Bivouac Regular Joined: May 2013 Posts: 1,447 | I've read about the Cavalry horse found at the mouth of the Rosebud. I believe along with all of the tack that at that place was ammo in the saddlebags and blood on the saddle. At that place is an business relationship ( I believe from Curly) of Custer sending a messenger to find Gen.Terry or was information technology Gen. Gibbon. I don't recall ever reading that he made information technology to the Generals. The rider was sent from Last Stand Hill shortly before the encirclement was complete. At that place are Indian accounts of a Soldier breaking away from the troop on a fast horse while being pursued by 3 or four warriors who after a short altitude were ending their pursuit ( because he was outrunning them ) when he then put his revolver to his head and fired. I believe he was traveling in the direction of the Rosebud. This might exist that horse too. I don't recall the color of the Rosebud horse or the two ridden out. Custer had each of his Company'southward issued mounts of only i color, each Company's being unlike from the rest. I believe information technology was Russel White Bear, translating for Curley that first reported the courier sent n, but it was long subsequently the battle, IIRC. That horse was a sorrel roan and the courier left equally Custer sent a company to the river to feint a charge to buy him a little fourth dimension, well before the serious shooting started. The courier did not arrive. Don't know how true it is, simply the History Channel show on Frank Finkel who claimed to be a survivor was interesting. |
| Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: Hastings] #12185464 08/03/17 | Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: 2,183 dan_oz Campfire Ranger | | Campfire Ranger Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: 2,183 | What practice yous call a doctor that was final in his course? A, Doctor. Questions, where did the tribes get the repeating rifles? Why were Custer'southward men using single shots? The Trapdoor Springfield that Custer's troops used were the standard army upshot of the day, rifles for the infantry, carbines for the calvary. The Indians could buy whatever rifle they wanted, mostly at trading posts. Not all of them had repeaters though, just the wealthy ones. The poor ones however used bows and arrows. The .45 caliber Springfield would accept been a much ameliorate weapon than the boilerplate Indian's lever rifle if longer range and accurateness were a factor, which was non the case at LBH. The ground forces wanted a single shot to promote ammo conservation which can be important when you merely carry 50 rounds on your person. I read somewhere that the army was notwithstanding using a good many of these .45 caliberTrapdoor Springfields in Cuba over twenty years later in the Spanish American war. The Spanish Mausers were much better long range weapons I'm sure. The .30-40 Krag, a much superior weapon to the Springfield would accept also been in use by U.S. troops. Yep, power and range of the circular was a factor in adopting the .45/70, and at that place weren't (however) repeaters for it (though they were on the horizon). The cost of the rifles was as well a factor - in a straitened economy post Civil War, when yous have the pick between doing a conversion of existing cage-loading inventory or spending vastly more per unit on a new technology, this is mayhap understandable. Logistics was also a big factor: non only did the heavy rounds limit individual loadouts, just resupply was a major event when this would typically involve pack trains or bullock drays. The Zulu campaign of roughly the same time period is an case of how this could bear upon a campaign, even with unmarried-shot rifles: massive numbers of oxen were needed to keep up the supply of ammunition, rations and water, and nevertheless more than oxen were needed to bring up feed and h2o for all the the oxen. Soldiers were required to guard the railroad train, and it was vulnerable because of how spread out it was, so the number of soldiers who had to be assigned to this reduced the number available for concentration on the objective . The advance was slowed so every bit not to outrun supply. Soldiers had to be discrete for route maintenance besides, and supply dumps set up, with however more than soldiers to guard them (that is what Rorke's Drift was, and why roughly 100 men were sitting on a vast reserve of ammo for the fight). The other gene, and this was true of a number of armies, was distrust of the new repeaters. They were much more complex, and more vulnerable to failure, and at a time when soldiers typically had never been exposed to any such complex technology it was thought that they could not adequately be kept functional in the field. | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: dan_oz] #12185498 08/03/17 | Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,994 BOWSINGER Campfire Kahuna | | Campfire Kahuna Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,994 | Repeaters also cost more and use more ammo. Always a big factor right after a costly war.
Leo of the Land of Dyr NRA FOR LIFE I MISS SARAH "In Trump We Trust." Right???? SOMEBODY delight tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we clasp all we can out of the The states, it can dry up and blow away." | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: BOWSINGER] #12185514 08/03/17 | Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: ii,183 dan_oz Campfire Ranger | | Campfire Ranger Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: ii,183 | | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: AkMtnHntr] #12185529 08/03/17 | Joined: February 2009 Posts: x,835 plainsman456 Bivouac 'Bwana | | Campfire 'Bwana Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 10,835 | I got the book from the library,where my wife works. So far they are gathering their forces to go on the great expedition. No surprises and then far.
When i asked if they had the book i got an earful about ole custer.
She is no fan and has read most all of books in impress and some that they got from the library of congress. In her words what he had going for him afterward this happened is his wife.
One of best printing agents of the times.
Needless i steered the talking on another management real quick. |
| Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: dan_oz] #12185561 08/03/17 | Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 29,068 260Remguy  Bivouac Oracle | | Campfire Oracle Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 29,068 | IIRC, the Brits catechumen a big number of their obsolete muzzle loading rifles at virtually the same fourth dimension that the U.S. adopted the trapdoor Springfield via the Snyder-Enfield conversion. And later on they adopted the Martini-Henry, they handed-downward the Snyder-Enfields to their colonial soldiers in Africa and Republic of india, so that old unmarried shot rifles were probably in utilize somewhere in the British Empire until WW1. | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: dan_oz] #12185598 08/03/17 | Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,994 BOWSINGER Campfire Kahuna | | Campfire Kahuna Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,994 |
Leo of the Land of Dyr NRA FOR LIFE I MISS SARAH "In Trump Nosotros Trust." Right???? SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we clasp all nosotros can out of the United States, it tin dry out up and blow away." | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: 260Remguy] #12185614 08/03/17 | Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: two,183 dan_oz Campfire Ranger | | Campfire Ranger Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: two,183 | IIRC, the Brits convert a large number of their obsolete muzzle loading rifles at about the aforementioned fourth dimension that the U.Southward. adopted the trapdoor Springfield via the Snyder-Enfield conversion. And after they adopted the Martini-Henry, they handed-downwardly the Snyder-Enfields to their colonial soldiers in Africa and India, so that former single shot rifles were probably in use somewhere in the British Empire until WW1. Yes, the Snider was adopted for the same reason as Allin'due south pattern was adopted by the United states, a low cost way of using existing stocks of burglarize muskets. The British very soon went to a much better design in the Martini-Henry (itself derived from the American Peabody), while the US persisted with the Trapdoor even when the rationale of using existing muzzle loaders for conversion no longer applied and the rifles were being built from scratch. | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: wabigoon] #12185772 08/03/17 | Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: viii,571 Starman Campfire Outfitter | | Campfire Outfitter Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: viii,571 | What practise you call a physician that was concluding in his course? A, Doctor.
Westpoint officers that got 'fragged' in Vietnam didn't necessarily come last in their class.
yet withal considered terminally toxic.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof. | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: dan_oz] #12185789 08/03/17 | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: forty,179 watch4bear Bivouac Oracle | | Campfire Oracle Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 40,179 | Yes, power and range of the round was a factor in adopting the .45/70 The heavy bullet of the 45/seventy was a horse killer. With it, you could put a homo on foot by taking out his vehicle.
Son of a liberal: " What did you exercise in the War On Terror, Daddy?" Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, forth with all the other liberals." MOLON LABE | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: DocRocket] #12185820 08/03/17 | Joined: Feb 2001 Posts: 6,391 7mmbuster Bivouac Tracker | | Campfire Tracker Joined: February 2001 Posts: half-dozen,391 | I sure don't see anyplace you should repent, Doc. I enjoy these threads almost American history much more anything else on the fire. It did audio like I was proverb Benteen and Reno could've saved the mean solar day. I don't remember that, though an effort might have saved some of those troopers.
Regardless, I think Benteen, being under orders, would have a moral obligation to make the effort.
Instead, he stopped to water his horses and expect on the pack railroad train.
Fifty-fifty afterwards reaching Reno, he showed no inclination to advance, and they both refused to permit Captain Wier to go forward when he asked. Wier, regardless of orders, took his company to the betoken known equally Wier Indicate. From here, he reported seeing Indians "shooting into the ground" at Custer colina. Nearly people believe this to mean finishing off wounded troopers, an assumption that makes sense.
7mm
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded past conservatives as the starting time duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: BOWSINGER] #12185872 08/03/17 | Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 33,434 Birdwatcher Campfire Oracle | | Bivouac Oracle Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 33,434 | Houston sent Bowie to destroy the Alamo and bring the guns back to him. Bowie changed his mind and stayed. And so got likewise sick to move. The famous xviii pounder at the Alamo was a naval cannon, IIRC it weighed about 4,000 pounds. Information technology was purchased and sent to Texas in the fall of '35 by a cabal of New Orleans merchants, landed at Velasco near present-twenty-four hour period Houston and manhandled 200 miles across and so-roadless Texas to the Alamo by a crew that varied between about 25 and 50 men, many of whom were New Orleanns Greys, also financed by the New Orleans merchants. That large cannon was sent to knock down the walls of the Alamo while the Mexican Army under Cos held information technology. It did not arrive in fourth dimension. If it had arrived in time the Alamo compound would accept been rendered even less defensible than information technology was and peradventure not defended at all against Santa Anna. The Alamo itself dedicated nothing, it had fiddling strategic value, unlike La Bahia (at Goliad) 100 miles further southward which dedicated a disquisitional San Antonio River crossing point. There were 500 American volunteers amassed effectually Goliad through the winter of '35/'36, armed and fed by mostly Southern financial interests, including high level bankroll in terms of arms and armament by the states of Alabama and Georgia. Nobody was supposed to be at the Alamo, however the main trail from Arkansas, the Camino Real, led travelers to this urban center, hence there was a steady stream of Americans arriving there. In January of 1836 the wealthy Scotsman James Grant forth with his Virginian partner Frank Johnson (they owned lucrative silver mining interests in Northern Mexico) gathered up most all of the 200 Americans then in San Antonio and headed south to attack United mexican states, stripping the Alamo of well-nigh of its military supplies. This movement was made with the approval of the conditional Texas government of 1835 which was definitely NOT fighting for independence, rather for the restoration of the Mexican Constitution of 1824. It was this authorities that dispatched Bowie to the Alamo with orders to tear it down and send the cannon to places where they would be needed. Shortly thereafter this 1835 governing body brutal apart due to internal conflicts and actually, nobody could exist certain who was running things in Texas in January/February of 1836. For Bowie, the decision not to tear down the Alamo compound was an like shooting fish in a barrel one to brand. Grant and Johnson had just walked off with virtually every able-bodied American in San Antonio, furthermore Bowie had no oxen to haul wagons. That friggin' 18 pounder weighed four,000 pounds. Neither could it exist summarily spiked and abandoned probably due at least in part to the fact it had been supplied by the very financial entities that were bankrolling the war effort. So, the Alamo was defended. Everyone was expecting Santa Anna to come up from the South through the Goliad area, as indeed half his army did. Instead Santa Anna walked 6,000 men and around 250 laden ox carts of munitions beyond 600 miles of wilderness from Saltillo Mexico over a two month flow, losing 500 men to exposure, thirst and Indians along the way. In February of 1836 it was simply not possible to march an army past that route and approach San Antonio from the west, except Santa Anna did information technology. This is why everyone was so surprised when he got here. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744 | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: BOWSINGER] #12185911 08/03/17 | Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 33,434 Birdwatcher Campfire Oracle | | Campfire Oracle Joined: Aug 2002 Posts: 33,434 | They could have moved out and into the hills. Given Santa Anna fits attacking his ground forces's rear and supply lines. I would have voted for that. That would accept required supplies and organization, both of which were in brusk supply in what was and then far w Texas. Furthermore, after the initial expedition, it is my understanding that most of the Mexican ground forces's subsequent supplies were either sent by the shorter and more logical route from the south via Laredo and Matamoras, or by ship to the coast. The poplar Alamo account mostly ignores the presence of the 7,000 Tejanos settled along the Guadalupe and San Antonio rivers, a great many of whom were highly mobile Vaqueros who ranged over much of Texas. These were the guys who had been trailing Texas cattle 600 miles to New Orleans for at least 60 years by that point, and who trailed cattle 250 miles into Mexico virtually years, too as conducting considerable trade in Mexican and Texan horseflesh with Louisiana and points east. Information technology seems that many of those Tejanos in the San Antonio surface area remained effectively neutral, however those 500 Americans stationed around Goliad in the winter of '35/'36 effective PO'd the approximately one,000 Rancheros in that area by co-opting their dwellings, killing their livestock, and molesting their women. This was a mistake. The commencement thing the Goliad-area Tejanos did was run off Fannin'southward oxen at Goliad, rendering him immobile until he could get more. Then they became the indispensible eyes and ears of Mexican General Jose de Urrea, in control of the other half of Santa Anna's regular army. Information technology was the intelligence and scouting supplied by these Tejanos that was indispensable in allowing Urrea to surprise and scatter Grant and Johnson's force aimed at Matamoras, killing Grant in the process (a big bargain at the time) and to subsequently surprise and surround Fannin's 350 American volunteers outside of Goliad. Add to the opposition of the Tejanos the threat from the diverse surrounding Indian tribes nevertheless numerous at that date (if y'all were an Indian in Texas in 1836, who'due south side would YOU be on?) and it becomes doubtful if the Texians coulda washed a whole lot to Santa Anna'southward supply lines, at least before he was deep in Due east Texas. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall transport us a dozen of their sons, nosotros would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and brand men of them." Canasatego 1744 | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: 7mmbuster] #12185920 08/03/17 | Joined: Dec 2013 Posts: vii,200 Hastings Campfire Tracker | | Bivouac Tracker Joined: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,200 | It did sound similar I was maxim Benteen and Reno could've saved the day. I don't call up that, though an try might have saved some of those troopers.
Regardless, I recall Benteen, being nether orders, would have a moral obligation to brand the endeavor.
Instead, he stopped to water his horses and wait on the pack railroad train..
7mm Benteen's notation from Custer via W.Due west.Cooke said Benteen come up on large village be quick, bring packs P.S. bring pack. Now I'thou quoting that from retentiveness so it might non be verbatim but pretty shut. In all fairness Benteen did get to the battle, and while he didn't physically bring the packs on his equus caballus, he did bring the packs to the battle. Custer's note did not say report to me and I believe it would accept been foolhardy to run off and get out the ammo mules backside every bit Custer had already done. Benteen and whatsoever other officeholder would have to take a certain corporeality of discretion and horses have to take water. I truly believe he sized up the state of affairs and did a heroic chore with what he had. I'1000 betting he didn't accept 100 dependable riflemen on the line. I have walked that perimeter several times and wondered how they repulsed even timid attackers
"Paul was the offset corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus" Thomas Jefferson
Black Rifles Matter
Patriotism (and religion) is the final refuge of the scoundrel | | Re: George Armstrong Custer. [Re: deflave] #12185935 08/03/17 | Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 8,571 Starman Bivouac Outfitter | | Campfire Outfitter Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 8,571 | ALL commissioned officers that were sent to put downwardly indian uprisings understood that being outnumbered was no alibi to not engage. That was SOP at the time.
......Retreat, falling back, or not engaging was not an pick.
???...Of course it was an option , Custer himself had in by indian engagements made tactile decision to fall back, not engage and retreat. Brig Gen.Terry also indicated to Custer that he approved him the flexibility to practise what he feels is correct of his ain listen, These orders were written hours before Gen. Custer departed on his last campaign.
The previous evening there had been a meeting of General Terry, Colonel John Gibbon, Major James Brisbin, and Custer on the steamboat, Far West.
The purpose of the meeting was to develop a plan of attack against hostile Sioux known to be in the Rosebud - Fiddling Large Horn Region. The post-obit text is reproduced from folio 462 of the Annual Report of the Secretary of War for 1876, which is Business firm Executive Document 1 for the second session
of the Forty-fourth Congress (Series book 1742). -------------------------------------------------------------- Headquarters of the Department of Dakota (In the Field)
Camp at Mouth of Rosebud River, Montana Territory June 22nd, 1876 Lieutenant-Colonel Custer,
seventh Calvary "Colonel: The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as shortly equally your regiment can exist fabricated ready for the march, you volition proceed upwardly the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians
whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. Information technology is, incommunicable to give you any definite instructions in regard to this motility, and were it not impossible to do so
the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you lot precise orders which might hamper your
action when almost in contact with the enemy. He will, however, point to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that yous should
conform to them unless you shall encounter sufficient reason for parting from them. He thinks that you should keep up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the
direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears nigh certain that information technology volition exist found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that
you should still proceed s, perchance as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and and then turn toward the Trivial Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so equally
to forestall the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank.The column of Colonel Gibbon is at present in motility for the mouth of the Big Horn. As shortly as it reaches that signal volition cross the Yellowstone and motility up at least as far as the forks
of the Big and Petty Horns. Of course its future movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, just it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so
well-nigh inclosed past the two columns that their escape will be impossible. The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine
the upper function of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a spotter through to Colonel Gibbon's command. The supply-steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far every bit the forks of the river is found to exist navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander, who will accompany
the column of Colonel Gibbon, desires yous to study to him there not later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the hateful fourth dimension y'all receive
further orders. Very respectfully, Your obedient servant,
Due east. W. Smith, Helm, 18th Infantry A. A. J. Grand.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof. |
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